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Limmud Hazer: Pesachim 17b
When the Torah itself gives liquids a hall pass… but Rabbi Yehuda says “not so fast on vessels”
Rav Miller zt'l ’s shiur on Pesachim 17b starts with a simple exception for mashkin in the Azarah and ends up detonating half the assumptions about tum’at mashkin. We’re hazering the whole thing here — especially Rabbi Yehuda’s inside/outside kelim distinction (derabbanan vs de’oraita), because that’s the part that keeps tripping everyone up.
1. The Core Question
Is the tohor of mashkin in the Azarah just a rabbinic patch for rabbinic stringency outside, or does the Torah itself grant total immunity — even when the tumah outside is de’oraita?
2. The Four Main Positions
- Classic Baseline — Outside tum’at mashkin is usually derabbanan → inside the Azarah the Chachamim simply don’t enforce it.
- Rav Pappi’s Revolution — Even if tum’at mashkin is fully de’oraita outside, inside the Azarah it is tahor mid’oraita by halacha l’Moshe miSinai.
- R’ Eliezer’s Purge — Liquids never become tamei mid’oraita anywhere.
- R’ Shimon’s Split — Karka (ground pools) tohor; kelim still transmit.
3. Rabbi Yehuda’s Inside/Outside Kelim Distinction — The Part That Confuses Everyone
Rabbi Yehuda is the strictest on vessels but gives pragmatic breathing room.
His Rule (plain English + why it exists):
-
Mashkin tamei only derabbanan (unwashed hands, etc.)
→ Liquid touches outside of kli → only outside becomes tamei.
→ Inside stays tahor (nidma gabei but lo nidma tocho). -
Mashkin tamei de’oraita (sheretz, corpse, etc.)
→ Even outside touch → inside becomes tamei too. Full transmission.
Why the distinction? The Chachamim deliberately weakened rabbinic mashkin transmission so we don’t burn terumah on rabbinic doubt. But when it’s real de’oraita tumah, Rabbi Yehuda refuses to invent exceptions — even inside the Azarah.
Inside the Azarah (Rabbi Yehuda’s position):
Same rules apply. He gives leniency only for derabbanan mashkin. Biblical-level liquid tumah in vessels still transmits fully. Rav Pappi’s view would collapse this distinction entirely.
Updated Table (copy-paste ready)
| Mashkin Tumah Level | Touch Location | Outside Tamei? | Inside Tamei? | Azarah Effect (Rabbi Yehuda) | Reason |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| Derabbanan (hands) | Outside | Yes | No | Inside stays tahor | Protects terumah from rabbinic doubt |
| De’oraita (sheretz) | Outside | Yes | Yes | Inside becomes tamei | No free pass on biblical tumah |
| Any level | Inside | Whole kli | Whole kli | No change | Standard kelim rule |
4. Karka vs Kelim + Revi’is Mikveh Rule (straight from the shiur)
- Karka (small pool in ground): Treated like mikveh. If it’s at least revi’is and fit for immersion, it’s tohor even in the Azarah (nullified to the ground).
- Kel im (vessels): Retain full kabbalas tumah mid’oraita. Water in a cup inside the Azarah can still become tamei and transmit.
R’ Shimon and Rabbi Yehuda both preserve this split — showing the Azarah exception isn’t total under their view.
5. Rav Miller’s Key Proofs & Why They Matter
- Mashkeh beis midvachaya tohor proves baseline is derabbanan (R’ Eliezer).
- Water in kelim stays tamei inside Azarah — shows de’oraita transmission survives unless explicitly overridden.
- Sheretz touching outside makes inside tamei → contrasts with weakened mashkin derabbanan rule.
6. The Deeper Insight
The Azarah is either a rabbinic safety valve… or (per Rav Pappi) the Torah’s own permanent demilitarized zone from liquid impurity. Rabbi Yehuda sits right in the middle: pragmatic leniency for rabbinic cases, zero compromise on biblical tumah in vessels.
Unresolved Tension
If Rav Pappi is correct, why keep karka/kelim and revi’is distinctions at all? The sugya leaves it open on purpose.
Bottom-line takeaway
The Azarah might be the only place the Torah itself suspends liquid impurity — but Rabbi Yehuda makes sure vessels don’t get the memo for free.